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OS/2 VOICE IRC speakup with Arca Noae

TITLE: OS/2 VOICE IRC speakup with Arca Noae

DATE: 2018-02-17 20:15:13

AUTHOR: Eugene Gorbunoff
Please use online translator
go to http://translate.google.com
and request the translation of http://en.ecomstation./projects/reviews/index.php?id=314
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Location: February 17, 2018. Freenode.net servers, #os2voice channel.

(people join irc channel..)

[Roderick] Hello thanks everybody for dropping in.
[Roderick] I hope more people will show up.
[Roderick] It has been some years since we did a speakup for OS/2 VOICE.

[Roderick] Welcome everybody
[Roderick] Great to see a few people coming in already that early.
[Roderick] Hope we have a big croud joining us...
[MrFawlty] Hello
[Roderick] Oooh no 
[MrFawlty] :-)
[Roderick] Everybody should no hide and run!
[Roderick] And for everybody wondering where heck this nicknae comes from.
[Roderick] Its this weirdo from the BBC comedy series Fawtly towers :-)
[MrFawlty] I was a lot younger back then :-D
[Roderick] Well it does seem you found a lot of simularity with him :-)
* Roderick is getting in the danger zone possibly
* MrFawlty won't scare away people with pictures of Roderick... as he is still evil ;-)
[MrFawlty] @Roderick: I try to behave to not upset this channel 
as well... so try to do so as well!

[Terry__] Greetings from South Carolina, USA,  first time doing this, so mostly listening.
[MrFawlty] Welcome Terry, greetings from Utrecht, The Netherlands

Status: 25 guests at the channel

* MrFawlty wonders if there is an agenda or a blank board for open items
[Roderick] There is whtite board...
[Roderick] Well as president of OS/2 VOICE I would like to welcome everybody...
[Roderick] I suggest we wait another 5 minutes as you always see 
           people stumbling in late....
* HowardW didn't get where he is today without stumbling in late
[MrFawlty] :)
[eco-dev] what will happen with the chat-log? Are you going publish it?
[Roderick] Of course it will be published...
[MrFawlty] you scared him ;-)
[Roderick] Oke David from Arca Noae is here.
[Roderick] But now it seems Lewis his IRC connection dropped out...
[Roderick] As I said some people stumble in late :-)
[Cenbe] switching to GTIRC on BlueLion...

[Roderick] Oke well lets get started....
[Roderick] Depending on how questions come speakup can last 30 minutes. 
           But I do not want to make it last longer then 60 to 90 minutes.
[Roderick] Next week we have another speakup but we did this for people 
           living in Asia.
[LewisR] First, hi, everyone!
[Roderick] Today I invited Lewis and David from Arca Noae LLC.
[WizardTheCat]  hiya
[Roderick] I do not really think they need to introduce who they are and 
           what they are doing from day day :-)
[Roderick] As they just released ArcaOS 5.02...
[Roderick] Anyway guys the floor is yours...

Discussion starts..

[eco-dev] Q1: Are you going keep compatibility (source code / binary / directory structure) with IBM OS/2 Warp? eComStation?

[LewisR] Now, as to whether we will be keeping binary directory structure 
         with Warp, well, we're not removing the OS2, MMOS2, etc. directories.
[LewisR] We have no ecs directories, of course, and we have added the sys directory stucture.
[LewisR] We have no immediate plans to change anything for 5.1.
[altsan] Source code / binary / directory structure... 
         Those are really three separate questions...
[LewisR] Yes.
[altsan] That said, there are proper ways of determining directory structure
[altsan] ...assuming a specific directory name/layout is generally not the way.
[altsan] I still see software that has hardcoded paths to \ecs
[altsan] ...which is not an ideal way of future-proofing it.

[Guest43232] Is there a list of supported chipsets by uniaudio?

[LewisR] David, do we have a list of chipsets supported by Uniaud in the wiki?
[DavidA] Not that I know of.
[LewisR] We might want to look at pulling at information from the ALSA site, just to have it handy.

[WizardTheCat] What options are there for SSH and NFS in ArcaOS?

[Roderick] For NFS server you can install possibly the IBM NFS server. 
           How stable is that ? I would certainly recommend for NFS 
           client support you use the Netdrive NFS client plugin.
[valerius] WizardTheCat OpenSSH? qPutty? OS/2 NFS 2.0 and 3.0? Netdrive plugin for NFS?

[eco-dev] Q: What application will become the MAIN application for ArcaOS? The application which attracts new people and makes them buy ArcaOS. (example: 90-th, for Macintosh it was PageMaker, 2000-th: MSOffice for Windows) Do we have such "locomotive" application or Arca Noae is developing it?

* MrFawlty would think continued support of existing applications on new hardware is the most interesting one
[LewisR] Other than OpenOffice, we are not working on one, nor do we know of a specific app. 
         We're always interested in new stuff, though.
[Roderick] I can imagen the challenge is already big enough to keep the current platform moving forward.
[LewisR] That's a pretty fair assessement, yes.
[altsan] FWIW, I don't think Arca Noae should be seen as solely responsible for OS/2 
         application development.

[eco-dev] Q: It's not clear, what is the current version of OpenOffice.org? ApacheOffice or LibreOffice? Where to find it? Is it reliable? is it usable?

[Whoknows] Is ArcaNoae working on OpenOffice?
[MrFawlty] ack
[LewisR] The latest available OpenOffice for OS/2, by Bitwise, is 4.1.3.
         We are not directly involved in that work.
         There is no OS/2 code in Libre, so a port of Libre for OS/2 
         is not likely.
         Is it usable? I use it every day (Writer and Calc).
         Is it SmartSuite? No. But if you find a bug, 
         it's more likely to be addressed in OpenOffice.
         Good luck telling IBM about a bug in SmartSuite.

[MrFawlty] hehe

[Guest43232] arcaos5.0.1 is going in the right direction, 
             but there are still some issues: usb support, uniaudio support, 
             firefox stealing all processor power

[eco-dev] Q: How to become reseller of computers with OS/2 pre-installed? Euopean company was going start sellings of ArcaOS laptops. Blondey Guy is selling laptops with ArcaOS pre-installed.

[LewisR] You can find the latest OpenOffice at the 
         Bitwise site (http://www.bitwiseworks.com).
[Roderick] I was asked privately what does "guest" entries are in the list. 
           When you login the IRC network you should not choose a common 
           name such as Sigurd. But SigurdFR as an example.
[Roderick] But that is something for next time.
[LewisR] All that is required to become a reseller is to contact us at 
         sales at arcanoae dot com, and sign a reseller agreement. 
         There is no cost to becoming a reseller.
[Roderick] The freenode network is very big and if you login with just 
           your first name and somebody is already logged on the server 
           changes you name to Guestxxxxx.
[LewisR] From there, if you want to sell preloaded systems, just "have at it."

[Guest58636] I tried to lock in as Sigurd Fastenrath, assumed there may be 
             only one with that name....
[Whoknows] Which European company wants to sell laptops with arcaos?
[Roderick] At Warpstock Europe a Dutch OS/2 user named Arnold van Overeem 
           annouched he would setup a company todo this.
[eco-dev] Whoknows (I don't remember. The user declared to do this at WSE2017)
[MrFawlty] yeah, same person. no idea about the status
[LewisR] About the question concerning USB support: USB 3 *is* coming. 
         Really. No kidding. We also have plans for a new audio driver 
         to replace Uniaud, based on FreeBSD's audio, but this is in line 
         after Multimac Wi-Fi driver
         support, which is another pressing issue.
[Whoknows] No news no status I'd say

[RDPe] Does AN have any plans to position ArcaOS as a could-os, like running it in docker or likewise ? s/could/cloud/

[Roderick] I will meet in Arnold him two weeks time at a Dutch OS/2 
           usergroup meeting and I will ask him about the status.
[LewisR] We welcome working with any company willing to do the work to test this and provide feedback.
[LewisR] The same is true for running it as a cloud VM.
[LewisR] Sorry; I split up the difference between docker and cloud, but the concept (for us) is the same: 
         someone needs to step up to do the testing.

[eco-dev] Q: One of the ways to extend/develop OS is to include more functionality. More utilities, more options. All this functionality is hidden and available to users by request (in context). Example: When you select a picture, you get options to resize, convert, etc. SO, question: do you have plans to include such 20 or 50 small tools / functions into desktop? What is the list of functions?

[LewisR] We have no plans for this. There are available tools to do these things already (PMView, etc.).
[LewisR] Our focus is on hardware compatibility.
[LewisR] Enterprising developers should be focusing on applications.
[LewisR] ...and extending the desktop.
[LewisR] Another focus for us is on networking.
[altsan] Well, hardware compatibility and ease of installation/deployment.  
         Getting a functional system up and running and into production.
[LewisR] Yes.
[LewisR] Networking is another focus.

[eco-dev] (hardware compatibility) Is it possible install Touch screen by default? Wim Brul have developed support for many touch screens. (touch screen driver. for Wacom, for other popular touchscreens)

[LewisR] We don't ship with a touch screen driver, 
         but this is something we've talked about doing in the past.

[eco-dev] Q: How are you going attract young developers to ArcaOS project? There is no students or young specialists in the development team.

[altsan] Hey, young is a subjective term. :)
[MrFawlty] altsan: check ;-)
[LewisR] My daughter, Rachel, is 20, and she's at least "attached" to the team.
[LewisR] We would love to have more young developers join the effort. We also 
         have the ability to transfer a retiring developer's DDK license to 
         a young developer (permission from IBM).

[LewisR] I guess eveyrone wants to hear something about what's planned for ArcaOS 5.1?

[Roderick] As VOICE I am not looking as much as getting your developers 
           but just getting more people to use the platforms.
[MrFawlty] 5.1 wishlist... yeah
[Roderick] Hence my campaign to get more software packaged in RPM format 
           with a catalogue. To try and build a click and run software repo.
           Sorry Lewis go ahead...
[LewisR] 5.1 will unveil NLV support, beginning with German.
[LewisR] Other languages will follow (French, Italian, Spanish, 
         Dutch - hopefully, Russian - hopefully, and more).

[LewisR] The other bits planned for 5.1, which are very important, 
         are upgrade and migration.
         These are two different, yet related, features.
         Longer term, we are exploring how to install and run on UEFI 
         systems which lack a manufacturer-supplied CSM.
         Intel has announced that they will no longer provide a CSM by 
         2020, which means that we have our work cut out for us between 
         now and then if we want to stay current.
[MrFawlty] UEFI needs a complete new driver stack? Not 'just' replacing 
           the ring 0 stuff?
[LewisR] We're still exploring how the UEFI support is going to look.
         Right now, we're looking at video support at boot time. 
         It's like inventing the PC all over again.
[MrFawlty] ok

[SigurdWarp] What kind of advertisement is planned? If any

[SigurdWarp] I am working on my 45 Minutes Youtube Video and 
             I am close to the goal. Adding Comments right now. 
             It will be in english. I would like to add - even it is almost 
             about OS/2 - some "advertisement for ArcaOS". Are
             there some wishes or else what I should mention?

[LewisR] Right now, the usual round of magazine interviews and 
         possibly a couple more YouTube interviews.
         We have some rough sketches for some web ads, but no budget 
         to produce them, yet. Our resources are primarily directed 
         at development.
[SigurdWarp] I would suggest to open an ArcaOS Youtube channel 
             with some easy to understand "How to" videos
             Starting with something like: "These are the 
             recommended hardware things"
[MrFawlty] for good usefull YouTube movies you will need to come up with 
           scenarios and thinking out the shooting
[SigurdWarp] Going on with "Installation for Dummies"
[LewisR] That's a thought. Need to find someone with the time to do that.
[altsan] (and the video production skills)
[SigurdWarp] As I wrote before I am working on a 45 Minutes Video, 
             underestimated the Production skills and post processing, 
             but it is doable
             the question is what kind fo qualitiy is neede
[MrFawlty] see :-)
           45 minutes is way to long for YouTube
           10 min max these days
[SigurdWarp] Wait and you will see :-)
[Whoknows] As vendor channel it needs good quality and clean English

[SigurdWarp] This video is a not intended to be for the mass, 
             put talking about the history of OS/2 does take some time
[MrFawlty] true
[SigurdWarp] Yeah - perfect english is for sure somtehing 
             I have to think about.
[Whoknows] At least I quit watching videos with poor speak up within minutes
[SigurdWarp] I will say it with other words: i would like to start doing 
             such ArcaOS Videos, for free for sure, all of them not longer 
             than 5 to 10 minutes
             I would give it a try and you can rate, critizise and so on

[MrFawlty] SigurdWarp: great idea
[SigurdWarp] I would suggest to do this ArcaOS Videos without speaking at all
             I hope to release the OS/2 video tomorrow or next weekend. 
             There you can see what I am thinking about
[MrFawlty] UEFI sounds challenging
[LewisR] Hugely challenging.
[SigurdWarp] If my first shot for ArcaOS videos does not meet 
             / fit what is expected by ArcaNoae, than it is easy to quit

[WizardTheCat] What is the best place to ask ArcaOS support questions?

[LewisR] Well, peer-to-peer can still be done in eCS-Technical at Yahoo.
[LewisR] Official support is *only* available through our Mantis ticketing system.
[SigurdWarp] And no, it should not be a vendor channel, it is my private 
             channel that I would open so there is no need for ArcaNoae 
             to step official in
[Roderick] I think you can the best community support at www.os2world.com 
           forum or www.os2.org.
[Roderick] But if you have a bug or issue you want an answer everybody 
           knows the AN policy they advertise. No ticket=no support.
[Roderick] The same is true for Bitwiseworks.
[MrFawlty] yes, as ticket counts make the priorities quite a bit
* MrFawlty is not aligned to BWW nor AN :-)

[eco-dev] Q: Tell us about the internals of ArcaOS. Is it modern operating  system or ancient?
[LewisR] ??
[LewisR] The core of ArcaOS is MCP2, a mature, stable operating system.
[LewisR] Arca Noae has provided an updated kernel and loader, updated 
         drivers, and some updated utilities.
[eco-dev] LewisR Does ACPI driver allows declare 
          that ArcaOS is a modern operating system?
          (availability of this and other drivers)
[LewisR] I think if we can install on a relatively new system, 
         and utilize most of its hardware, we're a pretty modern 
         operating system.
[LewisR] ACPI is a key component of that ability, of course.

[valerius] Q1. Does OS/2 need modern VM's like VirtualBox and QEMU?


[valerius] Q3. Does AN want to include new FS'es like FAT32.IFS into the distribution? If so, is it good that AN benefits from it and developers still work for free?Q2. Who will suppoort the development? Need the developers work for free in their spare time?

[LewisR] VMs: Do we need VMs as in running ArcaOS as a hypervisor?
[LewisR] I don't see a 32-bit OS as a very useful hypervisor, personally, 
         though there are reasons to run smaller OSes under ArcaOS.
[Roderick] Well I tried the BWW Virtualbox and one big issue is that 
           ArcaOS can only use 4 GB of RAM. We have the new loader that 
           you can use a ramdrive.
[LewisR] Personally, I've used this technique to install a small Linux 
         distro in a VM to use as a VPN connector.
[Roderick] But running a VM on ArcaOS is kind of pain with 1 or 1 1/2 GB o ram.
[LewisR] This is the real problem.
[HerwigB] It depends upon which value for VIRTUALADDRESSLIMIT may be set.
[LewisR] ArcaOS works much better as a guest OS running under something else, 
         preferably 64-bit, where the 4GB RAM limit is not an issue.

* MrFawlty would prefer to run AN within VirtualBox on Linux or MacOS
[MrFawlty] which is possible already
[LewisR] Yes.
[LewisR] Filesystems: Yes, FAT32 is important for us to have available. 
         We are also looking at alternatives to JFS, including XFS.
[Whoknows] Why install arcaos at all if I need it in vm?
[Guest43232] how about java 8?
[LewisR] Java is a longer term project.
[MrFawlty] Whoknows: you can keep on running your 'old' stuff, while 
           benefitting of new hardware
[LewisR] Obviously, an updated JVM is needed, but is it as important as an 
         updated browser?
[valerius] LewisR Roderick there was an idea to use PAE memory for 
           swapping to/from VM memory, i.e., you assign a big memory 
           block (may be > 4 gb), and a smaller block below 4 GB 
           for swapping.
[BenRietbroek] XFS uses a lot of caching and can thus lose (lots of) 
               data on sys-hangs
               A snapshot capable FS would be interesting
[valerius] LewisR how about to update the ext2fs driver?
[LewisR] EXT (all flavors) has too many size limits on EAs to be truly useful.
[LewisR] We looked at ZFS, but this does not seem to be portable enough.
[altsan] ext2fs in general is also pretty obsolete, I believe
[LewisR] Ben, snapshotting capability is indeed one of the things we'd be 
         looking to gain.
[Roderick] Another issue I read about with ZFS is that its a very RAM 
           intensive application. Uhuu FS I meant.
[LewisR] Yes, and this is why we've kind of moved away from that idea.
[valerius] LewisR EA would be supported like FAT, e.g. with emulating 
           EA's via files, it it's needed. But the main purpose of ext2 
           support is not using as an OS/2 partition, but more as a means 
           for exchanging data with Linux

[Roderick] Useage of ZFS on 32 bit systems I think its not recommended duo 
           to memory constraints.
[BenRietbroek] Lewis,BTRFS is lighter than ZFS but seems to be extremely 
               intertwined with Linux kernel
* valerius looks like almost any Linux FS has small limit for storing EA's. 
  So, they are not worth porting to OS/2, following your logic
* valerius looks like almost any Linux FS has small limit for storing EA's. 
  So, they are not worth porting to OS/2, following your logic
[Roderick] I just moved to new apartment and have a new job, that is life.
[LewisR] Exchanging data with Linux is generally available using JFS. 
         While JFS is no longer shipping with a number of distros, 
         it is nevertheless able to be compiled into most kernels. 
         XFS has no EA size limit.
         Neither does BtrFS, AFAIK.
         Not that I am advocating for jumping on the BtrFS bandwagon...
[BenRietbroek] I have been using JFS on Linux for more than 
               15 years -- rocksolid !
[LewisR] Yes, if only the major Linux distros would recognize that...

* valerius so, as I understood, OS/2 does not need modern VM and developers 
  should work for free. Ok. Good.
[LewisR] ??
[altsan] valerius: Where did you get that from?
[Whoknows] I didn't see valerius his conclusion in here.

[valerius] altsan LewisR ignored these questions, while answered another ones
[LewisR] I didn't ignore anything.
[LewisR] Areca Noae contracts with various developers for various components.
[LewisR] These contracts are negotiated in advance, before work begins.
[DavidA] ArcaOS does not *need* any VM, it never did and still does not.
[altsan] Yes, I'm not sure what is meant by "does not need modern VM".
[LewisR] We also have volunteer developers, without whom we would 
         not be able to release a product. These volunteers are 
         compensated in other ways.
[altsan] Do you mean as host, or as guest?
[DavidA] Every developer has his/her own deal. You cannot and should not 
         make generalizations.
[valerius] altsan I mean both host and guest. Host is important because we 
           need to run different OS'es in a VM. Guest is important because 
           OS/2 needs to be run in VM, for testing and developing drivers, 
           for example

[SigurdWarp] Just for the notes: I try to open another channel "ArcaOS" at 
             youtube, will try to prolounge my ArcaOS license and once the 
             OS/2 Movie is released I will give some small "ArcaOS for Dummies" 
             Vidoes a try.
[altsan] ArcaOS runs well in many VMs, modern and otherwise.  There are 
         limited OS/2 hypervisors but in principal it could be used as a 
         host OS too.

[BenRietbroek] OS/2 as a guest is the most important, IMHO
[MrFawlty] x2
[Roderick] So running ArcaOS in Virtualbox is possibly your best bet to run... 
           Add the Virtualbox additions and use Samba server and you are 
           pretty much done.
           (Samba server for sharing files and the shared folders do not work 
           that well).

* valerius yes, if no formal agreement -- no responsibility to pay fro work. 
  Given promises doesn't count, so they can be violated.

[SigurdWarp] In my opinion to focus on VM is not the right way, you can use 
             Warp 4 to run in VBOX wihtout problems at all
[valerius] Roderick no shared folders support for VBox additions, for example. 
           So, they still need to be developed, to make work in guesrt OS/2 
[MrFawlty] valerius: always get confirmation about agreements made via mail 
           or hardcopy before doing any work or investments. Normal practice 
           most of the time.
[eco-dev] valerius you can develop a feature and sell it as shareware. 
          There is no other way to earn money on OS/2 market.
[valerius] eco-dev I'm developing opensource solutions, so the way to get
           money is sponsoring only. But separate individuums prefer to
           benefit my work and refuse sponsoring.
[eco-dev] valerius no.. opensource solutions don't work here.

[altsan] Of course, on VirtualBox (and probably many other hypervisors), 
         all OS/2 guests need virtualization support in the CPU.
[valerius] MrFawlty I know. I just pointed that behaviour of someone 
           is not ethical.
* MrFawlty is not a judge

[valerius] altsan yes, there is some VT-x/AMD-V support on OS/4 kernel. 
           If someone want a support on IBM kernels, welcome sponsoring :)
           altsan this needs some extra work to work as needed, of course

(.. ArcaOS 5.1 planned features)

[LewisR] Further items for 5.1: We're looking at improvements to some desktop 
         objects, such as the desktop properties notebook, and the 
         now-infamous background image selection page.
         We all know that IBM sort of left off with some less-than-useful 
         functionality there, and we're exploring ways to make that more usable.
[Roderick] The point is how big is the useability to have OS/2 used a host 
           to run a virtual machine. We have limited memory valerius. 
           As for guest OS does ArcaOS not already detect the basic drivers 
           to run in the mainstream VM's ?
[MrFawlty] LewisR: glad to here AN is exploring those

[LewisR] We also want to bring the Samba server to the same level as Samba client.

[LewisR] Currently, the server is using Samba 3.6, while the client is using 
         Samba 4 (4.7, soon enough).
[Roderick] So why not use Samba then ? Its not that well integrated but it 
           works and is fast...

[MrFawlty] ArcaOS, estimated delivery dates?

[LewisR] Are there any other questions about 5.1? 5.0.3, then?
[LewisR] Well, we had originally estimated 5.1 for 4th quarter 
         this year, but 5.0.2 took a bit longer to release than 
         anticipated, and pushed back the 5.1 work. I think best 
         estimate from here for 5.1 is 1st quart 2019.
[MrFawlty] ok
[LewisR] 5.0.3 should be available sometime in between, 
         with mainly installer fixes, and the usual driver updates.
[BenRietbroek] cool
[LewisR] BTW, with the new USB stick installation capability, 
         it's easy to drop an updated driver into the root of the USB stick 
         and boot with that for installation.
[MrFawlty] how is the response on the mail about NLS fixpacks going?
[LewisR] MrFawlty: Slower than expected.
[SigurdWarp] *important things
[MrFawlty] I think the DevCons had them

(..about youtube channel)

[SigurdWarp] As I see there is no interest in having some advertisement 
             about ArcaOS - as I understand there are much more important 
             things - I will procede as mentioned. Stay tuned to see what 
             happens. I hope to extent the  130.000 visitors on my OS/2 
             channel in the future ;-)
[LewisR] Sigurd, there is always interest.
[LewisR] Personally, I enjoy your YouTube videos tremendously.
[SigurdWarp] Oh, sorry, my comments my be misleading, I just want 
             to say that I will go on an hopefully it will benefit ArcaOS
[LewisR] We watch them on the TV, via our Roku (the YouTube channel for 
         Roku leaves a lot to be desired, but at least we get to see you 
         on the big screen).
         Thank you very much!!
[MrFawlty] hehe
[SigurdWarp] Just ordered a new Personal Edition of OS/2
[SigurdWarp] ArcaOS ;-)
[LewisR] :-)
* MrFawlty needs a package of extended time for it first... ;-)
[LewisR] ;-)
[SigurdWarp] For those not already knowing: www.youtube.com/users/sigurdwarp

[eco-dev] To Roderick: Q: What is the program (agenda) of Warpstock Europe 2018? Do we have the list of presentations? it's important to publish it today to attract attention in advance.

[Roderick] Eugene its on my agenda.

[LewisR] FWIW, I am planning to be at WSE in May.
[LewisR] I look forward to seeing everyone there.
[SigurdWarp] saldy I can not participate
[HerwigB] Me, too.

* MrFawlty is not sure about Berlin, agenda challenges

[MrFawlty] ok, thanks for the chat folks and AN for all the on going work!
[WizardTheCat] Thanks to the Blue Lions for coming to visit us!

[LewisR] You bet!
[LewisR] Thanks for joining us today, everyone!
[Roderick] Sorry MarkO
[Roderick] I think you just dropped in kind of late...
[MarkO] Not a Problem..
[Roderick] We are on the point it seems of wrapping this meeting...
[MarkO] There is always Next Week
[Whoknows] I'm gone as well cu all
[Roderick] Next week we will have another meeting yes. Then at a later date...
[MarkO] Did you have a good turnout??



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